Yet another SPRINT race promotion

theking
2018 July 19 23:17:54 
What ever happened to the idea that we were supposed to be trying to encourage the breeding of more stayers and better staying blood in Australia? The like of Peter V'landys promoting yet another BIG MONEY sprint race "The Kosciuszko" is doing little to help. Why is it that we continue to see more and more money thrown at NEW Big Money Sprint Races to the detriment of some of the traditional staying races which continue to be not only shortened in distance but also downgraded from. eg. G1 down to G2 etc?

Look at the likes of the Brisbane & Perth Cups, AJC St Leger, ATC Queen Elizabeth Stakes etc....to name a few. All have been shortened over time. Can anybody explain to me what incentives there are to encourage the breeding of stayers? Are we to simply lie down like cowering dogs and continue to let the overseas bred stayers continue to plunder our riches now and into the future for evermore?
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6 Comments

theking

2018 September 06 01:11:55

The points here that most people seem to be missing are:

1. Without owners there are no races of any description be they picnic races, maiden races or even G1 Stakes Races.

2. Just because an owner invests in what he thinks may be a sprinter doesn't necessarily mean that it will turn out to be a sprinter.
Who knows what they may turn out to be?

The example given before Luskin Star sired a number of pretty fair horses that could not perform as sprinters.


3. So the proposed sprinter that you as owners have invested in cant sprint but shows some promise as a middle distance stayer or potential stayer, where are the races programmed for you?

Or do you now give the whole idea of continuing to race your purchase because you have difficulty placing the horse from week to week in attempt to work it up through the grades.

I know from experience how difficult it can be to find suitable races for horses such as these.

The difference between placing a sprinter or a horse such as these is like chalk and cheese.

Yes you and your co owners will lose interest pretty quickly if your supposed sprinter that has been purchased cant sprint.

But if it has the potential to stay a bit you are simply not catered for in the same manner as a sprinter.

So what are you then going to do, spend another 20 or 50k to purchase another sprinting type in the hope that it may turn out to be a sprinter plus another 50k or so just to find out if it can in fact sprint?

And what do you then do if this one also appears to show talent as a middle distance type or potential stayer.

YOU WILL SOON GO BROKE AND AS I SAID WITHOUT OWNERS THERE IS NO RACING.

Their is no guarantee that if you purchase a sprinting type it will turn out to be a sprinter.

Who knows it may throw to its Oaks winning grandam or its Derby winning grandsire!

worker collective farmer

2018 September 10 15:24:27

Not sure what you're arguing anymore , king. I've said there needs to be millions more available for stayers or owners will deliberately try and buy horses likely to perform at shorter distances. Sure you can't be sure what you're gonna get. But seriously if you want a sprinter/top 2yo you send a sprinting mare to a sprinting sire, and if you want a 2-miler send a mare that could at least get a mile to a staying sire. It's not about the outliers. But even then the surprisingly fast 'stayer' is catered for. The 'sprinter' that actually doesn't warm up till 2400m is not.

I really can't say more than I already have: stayers need to compete for millions and millions more now if we expect owners to bother with them.

theking

2018 September 13 00:26:02

Re:
"Sure you can't be sure what you're gonna get."

Yes, I would have to agree with this.

Case in point these are the WIN DISTANCES of the last 25 winners sired by FASTNET ROCK the winner of 2/G1, 2/G2, 2/G3 all between 1000 & 1200m including an Oakleigh Plate & Lightning Stakes.

1600, 1000, 1600, 1600, 3270

2034, 1412, 1400, 1600, 2414

1500, 3216, 1400, 2600, 1350

1200, 2200, 1200, 1200, 2259

1628, 1500, 1280, 1300, 1218

theking

2018 September 12 16:40:55

"arguing" ?????

Unsure as to whom I am supposed to be arguing with.

Since when can someone simply expressing their point of view be misconstrued to be an intent of argument?

Branded

2018 September 05 16:15:09

I believe The Kosciuszko should be run in the country.It is their race and it should be run on one of their tracks.

Being run in the bush it should be run over 1400 metres. There are not too many suitable 1200 metre starts in the bush with a short run to the first turn on most tracks.

Newcastle would seem a suitable track over 1400 metres or they could rotate between the larger country tracks.

The race is for country trainers and country horses and it should only be for country jockeys.

Be happy for anyone’s thoughts.

theking

2018 September 06 00:38:18

Branded,
You say:
"I believe The Kosciuszko should be run in the country. It is their race and it should be run on one of their tracks."

So why then are you suggesting that it should be run on a "PROVINCIAL" track? ie. Newcastle

Branded

2018 September 06 09:15:42

Your correct about the Provincial track King.

It could be any track (not city) as long as it gives every horse their opportunity to win.

worker collective farmer

2018 September 03 15:00:09

King,

You're right about more money for stayers. But I doubt your championship will change much. I think about 650 million dollars is given back in prizemoney each year. Even a few million taken off a sprint and given to a long race isn't going to change much.

Face it, even though they cost more with extra years development, there really isn't much money for stayers. Sure the Melbourne Cup is 7.3 mill, and the Sydney Cup 2 mill, but Australian horses don't seem to get a run in the Cup anymore. How many races are even held over 2800m or beyond? If you had the 7th best 2800m horse in the country could it still be that, apart from a placing in one of the few listed 3200m races, you watch him just be thereabouts in offseason and provincial 2000 m races?

Look at the race programmes. It's pretty obvious that most races are between about 1200 and 2000 metres. Unless you desperately want to win Moirs and Lightnings OR the 2 big cups buy a horse that can do well somewhere between those 2 distances. It really wouldn't surprise me if 610 of the 650 million prizemoney is paid back in that distance range (and 12 million for races past, say, 2600m.)

Perhaps if there were a lot more 2400+ races on the calendar (including at ordinary meetings) and suddenly it was more 450 mill to the 'middle distances' and 150 mill for staying races we'd have better stayers. But even then owners can buy from overseas and we'd still have people buying sprinters that 18 months later are sold as multimillion dollar stallions while the stayers are still in the garage costing a fortune. Alas I think this is now the way of the racing world

theking

2018 August 23 20:26:16

Having just read the article titled:
Northern Rivers Hosts New Spring Staying series has prompted me to revisit this thread.

Firstly, Todman I agree with most of what you said particularly about your hopes for the potential staying influence stallions that you suggested. However I would like to nominate another.

I feel that freshman stallion Highland Reel may well prove to be a successful sire of quality stayers in the future.

WCF
"You asked what would I do to fix the problem.
This would take some thought as it would be difficult to change the mindset of the powers that be.

I have given it some thought however stayers and the breeding of staying types will never be successful unless the powers that be start to a lot some money to staying races in the same manner that they continue to do with sprinters.

NOTHING WILL HAPPEN UNLESS THE MONEY IS ALLOCATED.

Here is my idea:

The ATC should simply emulate the recently introduced (Yet Another Sprint Promotion)Country Championship with a series of races over say 2000m to 2200m with the final at Randwick over 2400m on say the second day of the Championships instead of the first day.

A similar series and final could be conducted for provincial trained horses.

Who knows we could even end up with a Country/Provincial super final where the first six from each final series could go up against each other for the GRAND FINAL.

Although not a staying race I have always thought that a GREAT idea would be to create an Australasion SUPER MILE CHAMPIONSHIP race at Royal Randwick.

My idea is that each state would and or territory & the north island NZ & the south island of NZ would be given the opportunity to come up with one male and one female representative to represent them through a series of heats in their state, territory or province to eventually race of for a HUGE prize in the AUSTRALASIAN MILE SUPER CHAMPIONSHIP.

What a spectacle that would be NSW, ACT, Vic, Tas, Qld, SA, WA, NT, Sth NZ, Nth NZ.

Yeah I know I'm dreaming, but I would like to see it just the same.

The point is that they in many cases would be absolute unknown quantities in ability until they faced each other. eg. Tas against Qld, Nth NZ against WA etc, etc..

theking

2018 July 21 12:21:16

Another example of promoting a Big Money sprint race in recent times is the 1997 Endeavour WFA 1200m Listed which has now been escalated to the now G1 ATC T J Smith Stakes.

And look at some of the relatively new introductions of 2yo SPRINT races eg. the Blue Saphire introduced in 2008 as a Listed race but now a G1 SPRINT race. And yet shamedly the time honoured VRC Sires Produce 1400m (traditionally a stepping stone for many classy middle distance types of the future) has been reduced in status from G1 down to G2.

worker collective farmer

2018 July 22 18:25:26

King,

I don't get what you're saying about the Blue Sapphire, as it is only Group 3 and there's enough quality winners to suggest it's above that standard

Refer wikipedia Blue Sapphire Stakes

The Kosciuszko will be restricted to horses trained in Country NSW, so it's not your typical sprint. Sure, 1.3 mill could go towards helping stayers . But there'd need to be a lot more spent towards them. What would be your plan to improve our staying ranks?

Is breeding the answer? We've had MC winners such as Jeune, At Talaq, Tawrrific and Kingston Rule go to stud. Some have been good. But have they greatly increased our staying ranks? No. Neither did star staying sire Galileo, nor do the recent MC-winning stallions Americain and Shocking look like they'll be the saviour. It costs too much to own a stayer for an extra year or two while his same-aged stablemates have so many races 2000m and below he can pay his way in.

I'm not even sure this problem is restricted to Australia. Which of our horses have shuttled overseas? Aren't they the likes of sprinters Exceed and Excel and Fastnet Rock.

Look at Merchant Navy. He was bred to be a Slipper horse (by Fastnet Rock out of a Sweet Embrace winning 2yo that placed in all-ages G1 sprints). For whatever reason he missed his chance at the Slipper and Diamond. But despite thinking what might have been as She Will Reign won his year's Slipper the connections sold him for about 30 million 9 months, and one 3yo restricted Group 1 win, later. Is there any equivalent story for Aussie stayers? Ace High is wonderfully-bred. Would his VRC Derby have had him sold for 30 mill? If I'm not mistaken many of the good European stayers that go to stud aren't popular either. They become the sires of jumpers.

I think the 'lessening' of our staying races is a bit like the chicken or egg question. Are the placegetters in these demoted races much weaker than those lucky enough to have run the last few longer or higher-status editions? There could be breeding and owners' incentives introduced. There could be lots more staying races, both black-type and just simply ones held most Saturdays, introduced to the calendar. We could have some/more Australian races that automatically qualify winners for the subsequent Melbourne Cup and places reserved for Australian-bred runners. But would that work? The VRC seem to want overseas horses travel here with the promise of a spot.

Let's face it, commercial breeders ultimately just want to make a profit; same with owners, trainers and the racing clubs. Sure, most owners don't win. But they're not deliberately gonna try and win even less. So either they'll try and buy sprinter-milers or ready-made stayers from OS. Do punters and the general public care? I'd say mostly no. Would you be happy for the TABs and bookie to increase their take-outs to improve our stayers? I wouldn't, especially if it only means rich Australian owners rather than rich foreign owners win the Melbourne and Caulfield Cups. Nor should it take precedence over other programs that help the industry moreso (such as jockey safety and attracting new generations of racing fans) Do you have an answer that will make our staying ranks better, without costing too much ? I hope so, but I doubt it

theking

2018 August 01 19:03:47

Worker collective farmer,

Fair call re:
"I don't get what you're saying about the Blue Sapphire, as it is only Group 3"

My apologies, a typo on my part, I stand corrected. You are right it is only a G3 and NOT a G1. BUT I still stand by the point that I was trying to make. This race is typical of the mentality of continuing to invent & promote sprint races, there are many examples.

CASE IN POINT
The Blue Sapphire has only been run for the past four years. For the first two years it was only a Listed race but surprise, surprise it was rapidly elevated to G3 status in each of the two successive runnings of the Blue Sapphire.

WHY?

Has there been any NEW Listed or Group races of 2000m or more invented and put on the racing calendar in recent years?

Yes a number of ex Melbourne Cup winners have been to stud, many of whom have sired multiple Stakes Winners but in many cases these progeny are good milers or good middle distance horses rather than well performed stayers.

Is it that they were not suited to be trained as stayers or was it that there was more opportunity to earn stakes money if trained as milers or middle distance horses?

Or was it simply that the mares put to them were not staying types themselves as the last thing that the breeders wanted for the progeny was perceived limited opportunities.

However what I have noticed is that many of these MC winning stallions have been the broodmare sire of some very handy horses coincidentally mainly milers & middle distance horses.

Probably because of the commercial opportunity driven stallions that they have been put to.

But as we all know you can attempt to breed a stayer and end up with a sprinter or you can try to breed a sprinter and end up with a stayer. eg. even Luskin Star sired a G1 winner of a 3200m Wellington Cup in Flying Luskin.

The point is, and you have more or less agreed with it WCF, no one is about to go out and intentionally attempt to breed a grinding staying type knowing that there are few opportunities to place them with the hope of getting a return on their investment.

Continual promotion of SPRINTING RACES does NOT help their plight it simply lessens their opportunities.

I know from experience how difficult it can be to find suitable races for a young up and coming middle distance type (who may stay?)
Take a look at the limited opportunities for middle distance or prospective stayers on any mid week race programme.

You asked what would I do to fix the problem.
This would take some thought as it would be difficult to change the mindset of the powers that be.

But this will not stop the bleating masses commenting and criticizing the poor quality of our stayers compared to the overseas bred horses.

However the one race I would like to see elevated in status is the time honored 2800m ATC St Leger. If I had my way this race would be programmed two weeks after the 2400m ATC Derby as a bit of a consolation race for the also rans and the owners of potential grinding stayers.

And even if the ATC could not fit it into their calendar I am pretty sure a reasonably prestigious race such as this could be a great addition to say the Gosford Race Club if the could accommodate it.


Khaptingly

2018 July 21 04:06:51

Good point. The demise of Aussie staying races is a disgrace. Cowering dogs is an apt description.

Aussie bred stayers, if you dare to call them stayers, are simply pathetically weak. You only got to check the fields for the last 2 Melbourne Cups to know that.

Mind you, Aussie sprinters are not much good as a whole, only a couple holding up the reputation, but at least the sprint races have a majority Aussie content.

maccamax

2018 August 06 20:45:02

I'm guessing but I suggest Sprint Racing is the most popular. The betting pools should be a guide.
Personally I have NO time for Staying races and rarely bet in them .
We all love our Caulfield Cup , Melbourrne Cup double as a point of interest & their popularity world wide , but that's where it ends.
Glorified Welters.

Races like the Sydney Cup should be run at Hawkesbury. the form rarely stands up, like the famous Doncaster/ Epsom.
I'm all for the Sprints where the pace is usually more predictable and I find them much easier to " make a Dollar " from.

worker collective farmer

2018 August 06 21:24:22

"You asked what would I do to fix the problem.
This would take some thought as it would be difficult to change the mindset of the powers that be.
But this will not stop the bleating masses commenting and criticizing the poor quality of our stayers compared to the overseas bred horses."


So give it some thought. I'm sure most Australian fans would happily see the standard of locally-bred stayers improve markedly (depending on the costs).


"However the one race I would like to see elevated in status is the time honored 2800m ATC St Leger. If I had my way this race would be programmed two weeks after the 2400m ATC Derby as a bit of a consolation race for the also rans and the owners of potential grinding stayers. "


Will that change anything? The best derby horses go on to the Cox Plate. If they run again at 3 it's normally gonna be in the $4 million Queen Elizabeth (unless this new St Leger is gonna offer about the same in money). Wouldn't your race just be left to the stayers that ran, or were going to run, in the Sydney Cup plus the 3yo's who plodded into about 6th place in the Derby? We already had the problem that the dour 3yo's that already do this now lose their places in the Cup to foreign runners. Besides the Lloyd Williams and the syndicates that already find foreign runners to wear their colours in the cups will just add your St Leger to the consolation/development races their new Australians run in.


So what's the answer? Whether it's a group of first-time owners or some new big Ingham-like owner how you going to get them prepared to buy Aussie stayers? It's already been pointed out why one would buy sprinters or ex-overseas runners. So what can be done?

Todman

2018 August 11 09:11:43

I had previously posted on this thread, but it didn't make it thru.

No use rehashing the uneconomic investment that owners have to commit to, to foster stayers, hence breeders don't chase this market on OZ and owners chase Euro stayers to import.

I am most hopeful, that the current stud roster in oz/nz, with Fiorente, Americain, Shocking, Tavistock and even the Deep Impact stallions, can produce stayers and broodmares that will enhance our staying stock. I guess it won't happen quickly.

Currently, VIC has the best programming aimed at stayers, with NSW next. I would like to see racing centres develop autumn 3 year old staying programs, and persevere with them for several years.

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