Black Caviar + The Big Four

2011 September 30 15:29:01

Why Ascot when the HK Sprint is superior in every way and closer?

2011 September 29 16:27:13

With modern worlds comes modern and easier modes of transportation. The world is a smaller place nowadays and I believe I have been gobbing she should go OS and blow everything away, then we can truly say she's a freak.

people will always use the she didn't go OS and she beat up on her own rubbish..to quell this and shut everyone up for eternity...take her OS and silence everyone whilst attaining glory.

Why not..it's not a 6 month boat ride anymore, horse's can be in quarantine in another country within 24hrs these days...environments and conditions are less stressful to the animals, the excuse's are what...?

She is a once in a lifetime horse...

ONCE IN A LIFETIME HORSE...I'd rather try than die wondering.

tigerrish

2011 September 28 19:11:54

Rex,

The only thing standing in the way of her being the undisputed sprint champion of the world is Rocketman.

And likewise with him.

You look at his defeats and he's never shied from a fight or thrown in the towel. Krisflyer, beat in super fast record time by the number one horse in the world at the time. RM was just getting started back then. Beaten narrowly in Dubai off a poor ride. And beaten narrowly in HK off a super fast pace and mowed down by JJ.

If these two dont get it on in HK, it will never happen and we will never know.

2011 September 28 10:12:09

Bell Flight, this is a new racing year, it doesn't matter how SYT goes in the Arc, Black Caviar was last years HOTY.

Bell Flight

2011 September 28 13:04:24

I love and admire Black Caviar as much as anyone but she has no opposition in Australia. Her true greatness can now only be measured by how she fares overseas.

So You Think had no opposition here either. He's gone to Europe and if it weren't for self admitted trainer error would be 5 for 5 there including 4 Group 1's.

You be the judge.

2011 September 28 19:35:38

If So You Think was still trained by Bart Cummings you might have a point. As usual though you fail to understand the quite basic rules of the award. Any wins as part of the Ballydoyle stable were unable to be considered as he was now trained overseas.

Also only 3 of those wins came in the previous season. His latest win and the Arc (should he win it) occurred during the current racing season so are completely irrelevant.

The long spell didn't help you at all Bell Flight. It might be time to consider one last gear change (the biggest of them all) before you are retired for good.

Rex

2011 September 28 17:32:56

Bell,

you say she has no opposition in Australia and whilst I fully agree we would all like to see a clash with Rocket Man I cannot agree that she has no opposition.

Hay List has already won the Manikato and All Aged by a space and if BC wasnt on the scene would have the BTC Cup, TJ Smith and Lightning next to his name. He is rated the worlds 3rd best sprinter behind BC and RM.

If it was boxing it would be number 2 challenger taking on the title holder, but it has looked more like number 22 taking on the champ.

The official ratings have her 5lb clear of anything in her division and when you looked at what RM has achieved that is exceptional.

2011 September 28 19:45:20

Rex, you're wasting your time trying to rationally discuss anything with Bell Flight. She is a member of Moonee Valley, and has bought the marketing 100%, so in her mind the Cox Plate winner is the be all and end all. The fact that the best sprinters in the world are in Australia, not overseas, and that Black Caviar doesn't get out of second gear in beating them doesn't mean a thing to Bell Flight. So You Think won the Cox Plate.

Suggesting Black Caviar needs to go overseas to prove herself is like suggesting the Green Bay Packers need to validate their Super Bowl win by coming to Australia and facing the Gippsland Gladiators.

2011 September 29 01:04:16

BC is the best sprinter in the world.

SYT is one of the top 3 or 4 middle distance horses in the world.

As far as ratings go BC is off the charts - havent seen a faster horse in my life.

SYT rates just below Northerly, BLU and M&P.

Crushing Hay List is a lot better than beating Zipping by a length or 2 for trucksake.

2011 September 29 09:22:44

Whilst quite poorly made, I think this is Iglesia's point, ie, why does BC have to go OS to "prove herself" whereas other great Oz horses from other eras didn't but that is not a slight on their reputation?

2011 September 29 13:44:16

MD - most of what Iglesia says is an argument with a non-existent opposition. I'm not sure who has said BC needs to go overseas to prove herself. Marbine said earlier he looked forward to her going overseas, which I take in the sense that I look forward to it as well, watching her astonish others as she has done to us.

The only person on this thread saying BC needs to actually prove herself OS is Bell Flight, whose judgement is the nearest thing to a vacuum outside a laboratory.

Hands N Heels

2011 September 29 19:06:51

Ron

"I'm not sure who has said BC needs to go overseas to prove herself."

There's at least 1 poster who thinks she needs to do so to improve her TFE rating though.

Mr Lister

2011 September 30 10:18:39

The plan is to take BC to Ascot next year.

Hopefully she goes, wins and shuts everyone up that doubts or has the notion that you must win overseas to be rated an all time great.

Amazes me how people look for any reason to knock.

My opinion is, she's a freak. The best sprinter I've seen by a mile.

I was born in 69 and didn't see Vain and was a bit too young for Manikato.

Nothing since then gets near her.

2011 September 19 21:18:39

Saintly..

I said last 30 years..

When putting 4 horse's on a pedestal, isn't the idea to rate them according to what you've seen and been apart of..?

I can't put Tulloch or Vain up as I wasn't old enough at that time.

I'll ask you for your top 4 over the last 30 years, if you wouldn't mind...then just for comparison, a separate list for "in your life"

Ron..

At the risk of being ridiculed, could you please define...

"Makybe was a big fish in a little pond"

and

"Black caviar is a big fish in a big pond"

assuming ponds are competition, I'd just like to hear it from you with some more detail.

2011 September 20 09:21:41

Quez, we breed 18,000 horses a year in Australia.

16,000 of them are bred to sprint. 2,000 (being generous) are bred to stay. It's pretty simple maths to realise that standing out in the sprinting ranks is much harder than being the best stayer.

And it's not just the numbers, it's also the quality. When a G1 mare in this country retires, its a given that she will go to Redoute's Choice, unless she is from the Danehill line herself, in which case she will usually go to Encosta or maybe now Lonhro. The staying types bred in Australia are not just low on numbers, but they are from the second rung of mares, also, being diplomatic.

The spring cups have a lot of prestige and cultural significance built on what they were in days gone by. I've said this on here before, but when the Melbourne Cup was first launched it wasn't a test of stamina. In the era it started, two year olds used to race over two miles. The main WFA races of the time were over 3 miles. The Melbourne Cup distance of two miles was the ideal distance for the types of horses that were bred in the 19th century. Accordingly, to win the Melbourne cup you had to be the best horse of your generation (and weighted kindly).

Over the years, and this accelerated from the 1960's, the stamina has been bred out of Australian horses. We now have a classic anachronism in that our richest race cannot ever be a consideration for 90% of our horses. And, of the 10% (again, being generous) that might aspire to running two miles, most will not have any ability, so the numbers need to be supplemented by runners from overseas to make up even a b-grade field.

Winning the Melbourne cup these days does not make you the best of your generation, because the best of the generation are running over 1200m to 1600m.

2011 September 22 17:27:33

And so another thread where Iglesia turns it into an excuse to bag Kingston Town will fade away with no answer from him, and based on repeated experience he will lay low for a while and eventually infest another thread with the same lousy "logic" that has been punctured time and time again.

I thought Iglesia's last comment was particularly revealing.

"Ha ha, now I've heard it all. The richest race on our calendar isn't actually that important. It's just important in the public's mind!"

Iglesia would be the only poster on here that doesn't realise that the Melbourne Cup has long ceased to be representative of our horse population, while the cultural significance of the race is undiminished because as long as the population gets a holiday they couldn't care less whether the field is made up of local stayers, imports, hurdlers or 2yos.

2011 September 22 20:17:08

To be fair Ron, the general public wouldn't know the difference between local stayers, imports, hurdlers or 2yos. And let's be honest, judging by the cluelessness of his rants, it's unlikely Iglesia does either.

GeoffreyPudding

2011 September 23 22:35:02

EARS RONNY is easily one of the best horses ever.

kidlat

2011 September 19 07:24:19

That's true to a point Infidel, but also due to the historical prevalence of handicaps here as I mentioned, and to the way we schedule our carnivals; shorter lead up races to distasce finales.

2011 September 18 19:51:14

"I'm surprised at the premium put on range."

The reason we put a premium on it is because it is damn hard and not many horses are capable of it.

If MD did it Eurostyle and only ever ran in 2400-3200m races, with her own personal pacemaker or two, she could have gone year after year without losing.

Hands N Heels

2011 September 19 13:11:38

Quez

Think you might be over-rating that BMW of Makybe Diva's just a tad.

"I encourage you to take a lot at all the Divas victories on film again and again, her BMW win was in my mind probably on par with Might n Powers CC win, yet both quite different victories, the way that mare came home over 2400 to break Northerly's record was nothing short of spine tingling."

Not quite, that record which is still the course record by the way is in fact owned by a then 3YO who soundly thrashed Makybe Diva in his 7th career start in the same race the year prior, in what was a half decent field, unlike 2005.

"She wins the BMW in so far her peak performance, in record time, over 2400m, she is then in Japan 22 days later, back in distance to 2000m, on a fast track, carrying 59kg, then has to step out to a 3200m G1 in 3 weeks, again on a fast track, how many horse's have won a BMW peaking in record time then faced the starter 3 weeks later overseas back in distance, then jumped up 6 furlongs in another 3 weeks and won...? "

None and she didn't either. She beat a very average BMW field that was led up the straight by a horse who couldn't seem to go a yard past 2000m in any decent company but who found himself leading a BMW for home on sheer class. Hug's Dancer? Vouvray? Incidentally Grand Armee was the first of a few mile/2000m specialists Gai has thrown at that race ....Desert War, Theseo....

Have to say I agree with Ron's comment:

Because the Melbourne Cup has a special niche in Australian culture she punches above her weight in the public's mind.

2011 September 19 15:03:24

Iglesia

Firstly, good post with some very interesting stats.

However I believe my comment that "MD was a genuine champion, a legend, and as I say responsible for the greatest achievement I'll see on a racetrack (3 Melb Cups)" is hardly a knock on a modern Champion. And Ron and others comparing her to another champion in Sunline hardly backs up your point. In fact, given your comments on Sunline, by your logic are you are guilty of knocking a modern day champ yourself?

On the contrary, I actually found your comments on Sunline to be a insightful when putting her in context against other all time greats. When you're talking about all time champions, you look for weaknesses that help differentiate their respective performances. You hold them to the highest of standards as they are the best of the best.

To your post itself, as a comparison between the 2 horses mentioned, if we are to talk about only Open Company performances as requested, Makybe Diva had a 30% strike rate at WFA, and around 35% success rate in Open company.

Sunline, including her overseas sojourns was 47% in Open group 1's, 50% if you include the Mudgeway. If you take away Sunline's 10 from 11 record against her own age at 2 and 3, and her 2 Coolmores, her open class strike rate is still well above 50% worldwide across 4 countries. She also has an over 50% strike rate in her open Class Australian performances.

As Makybe Diva was primarily a champion stayer, discounting runs under 2000 metres, where she was 1 for 11 in Open grade, she was 3 for 8 in feature Group races over 2000-2040 metres, and 1 from 4 over 2400 metres (2 from 5 if you count the Queen Elizabeth over 2500 metres.) Statistically her best distances were 2000 metres and 3200 metres, the 2 distances at which she raced in Japan. Historically the mare produced her best performances at her 5th and 6th run into her preparation. Before heading o/s she'd only had 4 runs, so its fair to suggest she was at her peak, given she was coming off WFA wins in the Aust Cup and BMW. Her Aust Cup win was her first success at WFA after 8 attempts. The fact she then failed to run in the top 6 in either start, and was beaten by an aggregate of just under 10 lengths certainly was a great disappointment.

I agree that strikes rates aren't the be all and end all when discussing champions - for example Northerly is as good a WFA horse as I've seen at his peak, and I consider him to be clearly superior to Lohnro, yet Lohnro's strike rate is almost unsurpassed amongst modern day greats. However they are a guide.

What Makybe Diva has that no other horse possesses is those 3 Melbourne Cups. In Australian folklore this will ensure she is remembered as an icon, and rightly so. As far as the good it did for racing and capturing the public’s imagination, this is an unparalleled achievement.

Where you rate her amongst other champions is a debate that could rage for years, and everyone has differing opinions. That’s racing. To me she's far from the best horse I've seen, but she was responsible for the greatest racing moment that I've seen. That's good enough for me.

As I said, we are lucky enough to be living in an era where 2 potentially all time greats are running - So You Think and Black Caviar. I travelled from interstate to Caulfield just to see the Mare in the flesh on Saturday, and wil be watching the Arc fervently this year. If SYT managed to win the Arc I have a feeling that this will open up a whole new debate about his place against other all time greats. And I will be on his side.

For now, lets agree to disagree and get on with tipping a few winners this Spring carnival, and hopefully watch the next champ emerge.

Cheers

2011 September 19 16:34:21

Sorry to take a while to respond, Iglesia, but I didn’t recognise it as one of your postings at first, since it didn’t involve giving Kingston town a serve.

For the umpteenth time you’ve commenced your post by referring to people that knock “current champions’”. I’m intrigued to know who these people are? Are they the same people who, in a different post, you claimed were critical of the Golden Rose for attracting a small field but excused the same circumstances as they related to Kingston Town? I didn’t see even one poster arguing that case, any more than I see even one person here knocking “current champions” simply because they are “current”.

You single me out for particular criticism, so I can only assume you consider me to be someone who knocks “current champions”. If you read my last post on this thread, I gave my view on the four most dominant horses in my time in racing, which comprised one from the 1960’s, one from the 1980’s, one from the late 1990’s, and one from today. Even you would be hard-pressed to find a generation bias there, and there’s no point looking for any because you won’t find it - with me, or with any other poster here. What you will find, however, is that a number of posters have a perspective that you cannot match, are hence are better able to put various achievements into context, without having an axe to grind.

As to your specific critique of my last post, you say you “love the way” I say we don’t breed stayers any more. Sorry, are you saying we do? Is it only my imagination that most of our long distance races have been shortened? Is it my imagination that of the top 40 yearlings sold in Australia this year only one was sired by a horse that won past 2000m? Is it my imagination that a race you ironically referred to, the AJC St Leger, was discontinued a decade ago due to the lack of stayers?

The modern staying ranks are as shallow as a beauty queen’s master’s thesis. And I didn’t “conveniently” overlook the fact that Makybe Diva beat runners from overseas. It is a minor change compared with the complete transformation in the types of horses that we breed. Up until the 1960’s, virtually everything that was bred in Australia could stay. These days, maybe 10% (to be overly generous) can aspire to run further than 2000m. When I started following racing there were more than 1,000 horses entered for the cups each year. This year, albeit that the entries are later than in the past, there are about 150 entries, even with the internationals included.

When I also pointed out that modern handicapping goes easy on the good ones compared with the past, this comment “amazed” you. Amazed? You must be the only person on this forum who doesn’t know that the Melbourne Cup has been a quality handicap for some years now, and is heading towards being a WFA race, in fact if not in name. When Peter Pan attempted to win a third Melbourne Cup the weight spread from top to bottom was 23 kgs. Last year when Americain won, the spread was 6 kilos, from 57 kilos to 51 kilos. If you can’t understand that it is a different race than in the past, then short of recommending you spend a half hour in a quiet room with a Miller’s Guide and a calculator I’m not sure how I can help.

Iglesia, I revere Makybe Diva as a great horse, but she was a big fish in a small pond. Black Caviar is a big fish in a big pond. That is the basic difference – it has nothing to do with being precious about past, present or future champions.

2011 September 24 01:28:30

The thing is, Ron, for as long as I can remember, when it came to discussions of champions, people would run around saying "Kingston Town won three Cox Plates ... end of story". Yet when Makybe Diva comes along and does something that is equally if not more impressive, suddenly people wriggle and squirm - and it’s not the end of the story.

Instead, we hear from people like you, who constantly attempt to downplay her feat of winning three Melbourne Cups with comments like "The modern staying ranks are ... shallow" and Makybe Diva was a "big fish in a small pond". And instead of actually addressing my point that Vinnie Roe, who she beat off to win the 2004 edition, was the Cartier Champion Stayer of Europe, you dismiss his presence and that of other internationals as a "minor change". Right, beating the Champion Stayer of Europe is a "minor" matter! You can lament what we breed in Australia as much as you want, but you cannot have any credibility when you simultaneously dismiss her beating the horse who was adjudged the best stayer in Europe.

I mean, Kingston Town fans get excited about Robert Sangster’s speculation that Kingston Town was the equal of Spectacular Bid, yet when Makybe Diva actually defeats an international champion it counts for nothing – the hypocrisy is unbelievable.

Moreover, if you’re going to argue that Makybe Diva, with her European bloodlines, was unfairly beating up on hopeless colonial breds in this “small pond”, why have I never heard anyone complaining about how Kingston Town, whose dam was also imported from Europe, was unfairly beating up on hopeless colonial breds? Actually, it's not that surprising. As we know, it's okay for Kingston Town, but not okay for others.

On the one hand, you make out that the drop in the number of entries is a knock on the quality of the modern Melbourne Cup, yet, on the other, have nothing to say about the fact that any number of champions from the past, such as Phar Lap and Tulloch, raced against very small fields in some of their long distance conquests. Yet again, we see how any excuse is wheeled out to bag the modern horses, whilst applying a completely different logic to the sepia print brigade.

Not only that, you excel in going on about the weight spreads of yesteryear, but fail to address the point I raised: That we are NOT seeing great numbers of horses in the modern era winning major handicaps with big weights. If it was as simple as you suggest, and modern horses are treated so leniently, I ask you again: Why is it that Makybe Diva is the only multiple winner of the Melbourne Cup in the last 35 years? Why is it that no horse has come close to breaking Super Impose's modern record of 61 kilos in the Epsom Handicap?

Until you can stop living in the past and get to grips with the fact that horses are more evenly-matched in the modern era, you and others will continue to under-rate the feats of the modern champions.

2011 September 25 01:18:42

Iglesia, I like a discussion as much as the next poster, but it would really help if you actually understood a little more than you do. I doubt if you even realise how embarrassing your post in the early hours was.

You praise Makybe Diva’s effort to beat a “Cartier European Champion Stayer” and say that I can dismiss local stayers all I want, but I “cannot have any credibility when (I) simultaneously dismiss her beating the horse who was adjudged the best stayer in Europe."

Do you have any idea of the “status” of the Cartier European Champion Stayer? Obviously not, or you’d do Makybe Diva a favour and keep quiet.

The staying award that Vinnie Roe won does not refer to the classic horses who race at 2400m, and win races like the Derby, the Arc, or the King George. So You Think will not be the top Cartier stayer even if he wins the Arc. No, the staying award is for horses who race at 3200m and further, and in that category the ranks are as thin as they are in Australia.

How many times do you think the Cartier Champion Stayer has been the overall Horse of the Year in Europe? Never. Do you know how many times the Cartier Champion Stayer has even been the Champion Older Horse? Never. That might give you some idea of just how “prestigious” the award is.

Vinnie Roe was retired to stud at Coolmore. As the “Cartier Champion Stayer” you’d probably imagine he must have had quite a broodmare band? Well, not exactly. He is used as a national hunt stallion. That is, he is used to produce jumping horses. I don’t mean he started out alongside Sadler's Wells and was sentenced to siring jumping horses after failing with his first crops. No, he was used from day one as a jumps stallion because the Cartier Stayer of the Year is generally not considered to be worth mating with mares that produce flat runners. Westerner, another Cartier Stayer of the Year, stands alongside him. Vinnie Roe is so revered in the bloodstock world that his service fee is about A$2,500.

It’s not my job to teach you how the UK breeding industry, the same as ours and the same as America’s, has moved away from long distance racing over the years. If you want to have any credibility on the forum (which doesn’t seem to be a priority for you) it would behove you to actually learn something about the bloodstock you opine on, instead of just writing fifty posts that could be summarised as “my favourite horse is Makybe Diva”.

Just to close the circle, you actually argued that beating Vinnie Roe should be considered better than Kingston Town being judged the equal of Spectacular Bid. Let me put Spectacular Bid into perspective. He is one of the all-time greats of racing in the US. Timeform ranked him as the third best US horse of the 20th century, behind Secretariat and Citation. He won 26 of 30 starts, and broke or equalled 8 track records from 1100m to 2000m. He was the champion 2yo, champion 3yo and champion older horse.

The gap between a horse like Spectacular Bid and Vinnie Roe is about as big as the gap between your knowledge of racing compared with that of many others on this forum. I recommend, Iglesia, that you should make yourself one of those enormous top hats in the shape of a beer can, pop on a pink tutu, have twenty beers and head out to the lawn on cup day. You will find lots of top racing minds there who will agree with you.

Bell Flight

2011 September 28 00:33:38

What's the point of comparing the modern day horses with anything that raced from the early 80's and before... today's horses are stringently drug tested, in Kingston Town's era and before everyone knows that horses could race full of anabolics and go undetected.

Better to ask "Best SINCE Kingston Town?"

If So You Think wins the Arc, then Black Caviar isn't really even Horse of the Year! The best she has beaten is Hay List.

2011 September 28 09:03:15

Not so fast, Bell Flight. What about the 28 people who thought Americain was the horse of the year? Surely their opinions count for something? I'm not sure who they are, but it must be true because I read it on one of the threads here.

marbine

2011 September 28 08:34:41

Is SYT really on the way to being an "ALL TIME GREAT"? I concede that on our shores he may well be that.

What he has done in Europe this season has been fantastic and I think that he will win the Arc but does that make him an all time great on the world scale or a horse who has had a great season? I don't know.

Back to Black Caviar, so looking forward to her return & even looking more forward to nest year when she hopefully goes O/s.

Mr Lister

2011 September 28 08:31:10

"If So You Think wins the Arc, then Black Caviar isn't really even Horse of the Year! The best she has beaten is Hay List. "

You should probably take another long break from the forum after that comment Bell Flight.

Black Caviar win HOTY for the 2010/11 racing season.
We are now in the 2011/12 racing season. The Arc is yet to be run and I seriously doubt we can start counting wins by a horse that does not and will never again race in Australia.

2011 September 25 10:16:52

It's only natural, Ron, that having been flogged from pillar to post by me on this topic, just as I have flogged you and your cohorts before, it is natural that you would return to your insecurities and resort to personal attacks.

Quite obviously, the Cartier Champion Stayer is awarded to the champion stayer, yet here you are running around thinking, in your staggering arrogance, that you are doing me a favour by pointing it out!

Let's recap. You began by labelling Makybe Diva as a big fish in "small pond" but when I pointed out that she beat Europe's premier stayer, you then turn around and give us your opinion that not only are stayers of poor quality in Australia but stayers are apparently of poor quality right around the world - and, at the same time, accuse me of not even knowing what a stayer is!

This only shows what I argued from the outset: That you and the other haters of modern horses will stop at nothing to bag today's champions and anything they do.

According to you, the shorter distances are where it's at, and where we will find the best horses. Yet Black Caviar has dominated the sprinting ranks, and what do we find? An army of haters running around saying, oh, well, yes, she has, but we're not going to regard her as a real champion until she races over longer distances!

P.S. Special thanks to Speedy for bagging my enthusiasm for Lonhro. Champion Racehorse, Champion Sire, $88,000 service fee. Um, yeah, bag away, Speedy!

2011 September 25 14:30:27

”Quite obviously, the Cartier Champion Stayer is awarded to the champion stayer, yet here you are running around thinking, in your staggering arrogance, that you are doing me a favour by pointing it out!”

Well, clearly it needs to be pointed out to you, because if you truly knew how shallow and poor the 3200m ranks are in the modern era you wouldn’t be trumpeting it as some sort of achievement. You can claim all the factual knowledge you want, but your posts suggest otherwise, and they certainly betray an inability to synthesise factual knowledge into understanding.

”Let's recap. You began by labelling Makybe Diva as a big fish in "small pond" but when I pointed out that she beat Europe's premier stayer, you then turn around and give us your opinion that not only are stayers of poor quality in Australia but stayers are apparently of poor quality right around the world - and, at the same time, accuse me of not even knowing what a stayer is!”

Precisely. Stayers - that is, 3200m types - are indeed thin and poor throughout the world, and no amount of bluster from you changes this. It is not just an Australian phenomenon. A century ago in England the most sought after stallion was the winner of the Ascot Gold Cup. All of the champion stallions of that era like St Simon, Isonomy, Isinglass, Persimmon, Bayardo etc won this race, and are somewhere in the pedigrees of every horse in the world today. But the modern champion stayers get careers siring jumping horses. Do you think I am just making this up?

In the US, one of the time-honoured great races used to be the 3200m Jockey Club Gold Cup, won by household names such as Man O’War, Gallant Fox, Whirlaway, Citation, Damascus and Kelso. In 1975 it was reduced to 2400m, because stayers had become low in numbers and quality. In 1990 it was further reduced to 2000m. The Display Handicap, for a hundred years the longest flat race in America at 3600m was discontinued about 20 years ago due to lack of numbers. There is no longer any flat race in the US longer than 2400m. But when I point out that two milers are a small and ever-diminishing pond throughout the racing world you accuse me of just inventing this stuff out of spite?

If the fact that Vinnie Roe went straight to stud as a sire of jumpers doesn’t indicate to you the status of stayers in the modern racing world, nothing will. Makybe Diva was a big fish in a small pond, and adding a bucket of water from an equally small overseas pond is a “minor change” as I said at the outset.

“This only shows what I argued from the outset: That you and the other haters of modern horses will stop at nothing to bag today's champions and anything they do.”

For the sixth time, Iglesia, surely often enough for even you to follow, I don’t hate modern horses. I’ve said three times now that the four best I’ve seen were from the 1960’s, the 1980’s, the 1990/early 2000’s and today. That is about as even handed as you can imagine, and the fact that you continue to ignore this and claim that I “hate” modern horses speaks volumes for your honesty. And I don’t “bag” Makybe Diva. She was a great horse, but I am able to put her achievements into perspective, and yes she was a big fish in a small pond, and the pond gets smaller every year.

”According to you, the shorter distances are where it's at, and where we will find the best horses. Yet Black Caviar has dominated the sprinting ranks, and what do we find? An army of haters running around saying, oh, well, yes, she has, but we're not going to regard her as a real champion until she races over longer distances!”

I can’t speak for others, but that doesn’t describe me. I repeat that I think Black Caviar is a freak, one of my four best, and if she never races again it won’t change my opinion of her.

But no doubt Iglesia, you’ll be back on at some point saying that the only reason Kingston Town is more revered than Makybe Diva is because people like me hate modern horses. I can set my watch by it.

2011 September 25 14:26:54

Anyone using Vinnie Roe, a horse that was pummeled every time he took on top horses outside 3-4000m plodder grade, as evidence of how good Makybe Diva was clearly has very little clue at all.

There was a reason Vinnie Roe went around in Irist St Legers Iglesia, and it wasn't because he was a European super star. He was on the second or third line when it comes to quality. Even so he still managed to go down by less than 1.5 lengths in the 2004 Melbourne Cup despite having to give Makybe Diva 2.5kg and being given a tour of the nursery car park by Pat Smullen.

Just give it a rest Iglesia. We know you are clueless on virtually every racing topic going around so for your own benefit please do less talking and more listening. You might learn something.

2011 September 25 16:35:17

What rock have you crawled out from underneath, Camel56? Last time you had a go at me it was over my suggestion that something should be done to curb the inconvenience caused by dual-acceptors. Lo and behold, within weeks of my comments, which you bagged the daylights out of me about, there was indeed a rule change regarding dual acceptors. That's how much credibility you have.

I don't know how many times I must explain this to people, but obviously you cannot get to grips with the weight-for-age scale, Camel. Here you are complaining that Vinnie Roe had to give 2.5 kilos to Makybe Diva (in reference to the 2004 Cup), but, in your desparation to hop into Makybe Diva, you conveniently fail to take into account the weight-for-age scale - around which the weights are set each year.

For your benefit, and that of others who cannot get to grips with this simple concept, Vinnie Roe carried 1.5 kilos less than the weight-for-age mark for seven-year-old stallion (which is 59.5 kilos). Makybe Diva carried two kilos less than the weight-for-age mark for a six-year-old mare (which is 57.5 kilos). Therefore, relative to the weight-for-age scale, Vinnie Roe gave a mere 0.5 kilo to Makybe Diva. Twelve months later, Makybe Diva beat him again giving him two kilos more than weight-for-age, and breaking the previous weight-carrying record for a mare by an incredible 4.5 kilos.

The amazing thing is, when Ethereal won the Melbourne Cup, and defeated a horse that went on to win the following year's Arc De Triomphe, that was downplayed on the basis that Marienbard (despite being sent halfway around the world specifically to contest it) wasn't a stayer. When Makybe Diva beats the Europe's champion stayer, that is downplayed on the basis that stayers - worldwide - are no good!

Of course, the other point in all this is that it's not as though Makybe Diva needed two miles in order to excel. Not only is she the only three-time winner of the race, she is the only Melbourne Cup winner in the last 25 years (and probably for some time before that, as well) to have won a 1,400-metre weight-for-age race in the early stages of the same campaign (and, for good measure, both the placegetters in that race were Group One winners at 1,400 metres).

Oh, and in between the Memsie and the Melbourne Cup she wins a minor race called the Cox Plate - beating, amongst others, Fields Of Omagh, who goes on to win the 2006 edition (beating El Segundo, who goes on to win the 2007 edition).

P.S. If fashionability at stud is the prism through which we should view a racehorse's career, as you seem to be implying in the case of Vinnie Roe, does that mean Tulloch was a dud racehorse because he stood for a paltry fee and produced only a handful of minor stakes performers?

2011 September 25 23:23:10

Iglesia

I’ve tried to give you the benefit of the doubt, and engage in meaningful debate, but the following has become painfully obvious. You are not here to save the reputation of modern day champions, nor is there an army of people on here who bag modern day champions. This “army” basically lives in your own mind, and consists of anyone who is a fan of Kingston Town, or who does not rate Makybe Diva the greatest of all time. Of course your comments re Sunline don’t count as bagging in your mind, because you were simply defending Makybe Diva. Yet any factual comments on the great mares career are refuted by you as “one of the classic techniques that people use to knock the modern champions. “ Sunline and Makybe Diva are both modern champions, debating the merits of the 2 is not bagging modern champions.

In fact when I pointed out a myriad of statistics in my response to your Sunline/Makybe Diva posting, you chose to ignore all these and continue on your merry way extolling Makybe Diva’s international champion qualities through her defeat of Vinnie Roe (conveniently ignoring her 2 abject failures when tried on international soil herself at the very peak of her career.)You are happy to talk up the mare's 1400 metre WFA win, but again ignore the fact it was her only win in 11 tries under 2000 metres against Open Company. You then speak of the unbelievable hypocrisy of other posters.

As I stated, So You Think and Black Caviar are on their way to becoming 2 of the all time greats. Most on here seems to agree, and they are both modern day champions. I already believe So You Think to be the best WFA horse I’ve seen since the Northerly/Sunline era, (2 more modern day champions) should he win the Arc his place amongst our very greatest of all time will be assured, if its not already. Black Caviar to me is already the best sprinter I’ve seen, and will ever likely see. It’s an honour to have seen these 2 horses in the flesh. But these points are irrelevant to your argument, which, like every post you make on here, comes down to this:

You don’t like Kingston Town,
You don’t believe in track bias

You are a huge fan of Makybe Diva
Judging by your profile pic you are a huge fan of Madonna.

While there’s nothing wrong with that, I have a sneaking suspicion there may be other forums you frequent on the internet where you passionately, if not repetitively argue Madonna is superior to all the modern day pop artists. When people disagree with you and claim the current generation is better, you no doubt reply that they have no appreciation of history, and that they are part of an army who are using “one of the classic techniques that people use to knock past icons.”

And thus, the circle of hypocrisy is complete.

How about you try to engage in some meaningful debate about upcoming races and perhaps provide a tip or 2. It’s a great time of year racing wise, lets keep these debates for the quieter winter months.

Cheers

2011 September 25 21:21:06

"P.S. If fashionability at stud is the prism through which we should view a racehorse's career, as you seem to be implying in the case of Vinnie Roe, does that mean Tulloch was a dud racehorse because he stood for a paltry fee and produced only a handful of minor stakes performers?"

You've reached rock bottom with that line, Iglesia? I’m starting to think you are deliberately playing the fool because no one could be that obtuse. Tulloch did not START his stud career at a paltry fee. He was given every opportunity because of his extraordinary talent, but ended up as an unfashionable sire because he did not pass on his talents. Vinnie Roe and other Cartier “stayers of the year” nowadays START their stud careers as jumps sires because no one is interested in having their flat racing “talents” in the first place. If you pretend that you really can’t understand the difference then I’ll know you are just playing the fool for some reason.

But at least there is a glimmer of realisation in your last posting. Faced with the reality that America had to abandon distance racing a generation ago, the Europeans view the “champion stayers” as fit only for siring hurders, and that the Melbourne Cup has about 10% of the number of entries it used to, even you have had to concede that being a gun two miler does not have the cache that it once did.

You’ve accepted this by trying to switch the topic by saying “it's not as though Makybe Diva needed two miles in order to excel.” Well you’ve painted yourself into a corner, Iglesia, because the fact is that she definitely needed 3200m to excel.

You make much of her winning a 1400m WFA race, but despite this one bright flash, she was 2 for 12 over her career in races of 1600m and below. (The other win was a Wangaratta maiden.) If that is your idea of “excelling”, then we have a few dozen Hall of Famers running each season. At races from 1601m to 2000m she was 6 from 12, a figure boosted by wins in restricted grade in Sale, Ballarat and Werribee early in her career. In city races, let alone in decent grade, she lost more than she won in this distance range. And at 2001m to 2400m, she was 2 from 5.

At 2600m and 3200m, of course, she was 5 from 6. That is, the long distances were her forte. So, for all that you say she didn’t need 3200m to excel, the facts are that long trips were the only part of the distance spectrum where she won more than she lost.

The significance of her winning a WFA race over 1400m, albeit once, is that she did something that many stayers can’t do. Does that mean she should be rated as the equal of crack 1400m horses? Of course not, it just means she was more talented than most Melbourne Cup winners, a fact that no one disputes.

What is also not in dispute, is that being the most talented Melbourne Cup winner in the modern era means being a big fish in a small pool.

2011 September 25 19:39:24

Oh and Iglesia, if the dual acceptor rule has been changed as you say (in any meaningful fashion anyway) perhaps you could explain why Raffaello was able to accept for both the Caulfield and Morphetville meetings yesterday?

2011 September 25 19:05:57

Way to go addressing 1 minor point Iglesia. Even then you couldn't get it right. Way back in 2004 the F&M allowance was 2.5kg not 2kg. So you're wrong with that point I'm afraid. I bet you count Group 2 wins in races subsequently upgraded as Group 1 wins too. Try again goose.

As I said though, minor issue. Perhaps you'd like to address the butcher job given to Vinnie Roe by Smullen. Or even better, Vinnie Roe's real standing when it comes to the best horses in Europe. Let's see you try to argue that the Irish St Leger (a race so poor they had to open it up to older horses) is any better than a Group 3 Handicap. This should be good for a laugh. Rofl

2011 September 29 01:00:51

KT > Cream Puff
MD > Cream Puff
KT > MD
Blind Freddy > Iglesia

2011 September 25 07:38:54

I thought his fav horse was Lonhro - two time failure in the Cox Plate LOL but the best horse in the land according to him.

2011 September 19 13:59:33

Haha! Now I've heard it all. The richest race on our calendar isn't actually that important. It's just important in the public's mind! You can bet nobody would be arguing that if Kingston Town had one. Twice he tried and failed to complete the Cox Plate - Melbourne double, including a defeat in the Melbourne Cup with one kilo LESS than weight-for-age. Makybe Diva has one attempt at the same double and succeeds carrying half-a-kilo MORE than weight-for-age. Hilarious, Makybe Diva was "leniently" treated, whereas Kingston Town carried the "grandstand" - you blokes are just too funny.

2011 September 18 17:50:37

IMO Quez, it doesn't say much, because that is only your opinion on the best 4 of the last 30 years.

I a msure there are many others who would choose a different 4.

The Tutor

2011 September 18 16:56:50

Great discussion guys. Seems we are pretty evenly split

2011 September 18 10:32:34

Of particular interest to note when deciding

"the big four"

Past 30 yrs
Sunline
Makybe Diva
Black Caviar

3 gals, and Might N Power Versus So You Think for the remaining slot.

what does that say..??

kidlat

2011 September 17 18:26:38

I'm surprised at the premium put on range. I think this is something peculiar to Australian racing.

Sprinters, even as recently as Scillachi and Hareeba, were forced out of their optimal range as most sprints were handicaps. With the advent of the TJ Smith, which has quckly become a great race IMO, the elevation of the Patinack to Group 1 at the expense of the Salinger, as well as overseas options sprinters can stay sprinters.

As Ron says, in her distance range she's as dominant as we've seen. To me, that's enough.

2011 September 17 10:32:11

Quez, I am not Diva bashing at all. I loved the mare, she was exceptional, I have said all along she is a champ. All I am doing is applying the actual facts to decide where IMO, she sits in the overall scheme of things.

The statement of mine in which you have highlighted was in response to your claim that we should hand pick her results (ie not include some results because the distance didn't suit). Some now suggest that some other results don't count because it wasn't her grand final.

IMO, the best racehorses don't need excuses. Look at some of the all time great horses in Carbine, Phar Lap and Rising Fast. They won over varying distances and backed up over these journies in quick time (sometimes even ont he same day). You cannot tell me that they only won grand finals.

Sunlines record is far superior to that of Makybe Diva IMO. She continued to win, despite what race she was being set for. Grand final or not she usually won. You do not have to hand pick which races you include in the overall records of the best, the overall record speaks for itself.

The best Australian racehorse of all time IMO, would have won more than it lost, simple as that really.

Now I seem to have hit a nerve here, and I am sorry if my opinion disagrees with that of others on here. However it is just that, an opinion, you guys have yours and I have mine. We could debate this for centuries and in all probability, we won't change our minds.

There are no rights and wrongs here, just difference of opinions.

2011 September 17 12:02:02

Totally agree with Saintly.

I've been following racing since the 1960's, and the term "grand final" is a very recent invention. I first heard it used in reference to Northerly, to explain away a lot of very ordinary runs that he mixed in with some great ones.

As soon as you use the phrase "grand final" in respect of a horse you are acknowledging that he/she is not on the level of the all-time greats. Phar Lap at one stage won 23 of 24 starts. Carbine won 15 in a row. Tulloch and Kingston Town had 12 and 11 consecutive wins respectively. The concept of "grand finals" was meaningless to such horses - they were capable of winning over any distances at any stage of a campaign, and more often than not they did.

Makybe Diva is not on their level. Because the Melbourne Cup has a special niche in Australian culture she punches above her weight in the public's mind. But in purely racing terms, Makybe Diva was a great stayer in an era where we no longer breed stayers, and where the handful of good ones are treated leniently in the weights. No horse had won 3 Melbourne cups before, but the race today compared with the past is chalk and cheese. Phar Lap had to carry 68 kilos to try to win a second cup. Peter Pan got 66.5 kgs in his attempt at a third. Archer got 72 kilos after winning the first two cups. Under that weight scale, repeat Melbourne cups were virutally impossible.

IMHO, Black Caviar can't be put up with the "big four" because her distance range is too limited. But what she does, she does as well as any horse I've seen. Given that we breed the best sprinters in the world, for her to dominate the others in the way that she does is extraordinary. In my time, I regard Vain in his era, Kingston Town as an autumn 3yo, Sunline in the 2000/2001 season and now Black Caviar as the most dominant horses I've seen viz a viz their contemporaries.

2011 September 18 23:12:38

Balciano claims that it's not "necessarily true" that people knock the "modern champions" but in this thread alone - as I have already explained in some detail - we have seen several of the classic techniques that people use to knock the modern champions; only they don't see it as knocking, they see themselves as doing everyone a service by (arbitrarily) thinning the ranks of true "champions".

But special mention must go to ron turcotte for attempts to play down Makybe Diva's three Melbourne Cups. I love the way Ron comments that "we no longer breed stayers" (in an attempt to make out that her Cups were weak) but conveniently ignores the fact that she defeated Vinnie Roe - the Cartier Champion Stayer of Europe! Granted, you blokes would probably be more impressed if she'd been run down by the previous season's VRC and AJC St Leger winner, but that's your prerogative.

I also find amazing Ron's comment that the "good ones are treated leniently in the weights [in the modern era of the Melbourne Cup]". If true, why is it that Makybe Diva is the only multiple winner of the race in the last 35 years? Could it be that, like many, you are overlooking the fact that horses are much more evenly-matched in the modern era, and this, in fact, means that winning at or near the top of the weights remains incredibly difficult?

Moreover, it's not just the Melbourne Cup where this has proven to be so. For instance, no horse, in the last 20 years, has come close to Super Impose's modern record of 61 kilos in the Epsom Handicap.

I am also fascinated by Sainly1996's comments that "the best racehorses don't need excuses" and that "Sunline's record is far superior to that of Makybe Diva". A fact that many people do not realise, in relation to Sunline, is that her high overall strike-rate is heavily influenced by the fact that she won 10 out of 10 in New Zealand and seven out of eight against other fillies and mares in Australia.

If you actually compare Sunline's record in Australian open company Group One races with that of Makybe Diva, many people would be surprised to find that Makybe Diva's strike-rate (54%) is actually signficantly higher than Sunline's (41%).

As pointed out previously, Makybe Diva (being bred to Northern Hemisphere time) was not eligible to run in a lot of the races where Sunline excelled as a three-year-old, such as the Flight Stakes. Nor is there the staying equivalent of a race like the Coolmore Classic (twice won by Sunline).

For reasons such as this, comparing their records in open company Group One races isn't an esoteric exercise - it's the only fair way to do it.

2011 September 17 11:37:35

Fair enough Saintly, no nerve hit with me mate, as you say just a difference of opinion.

2011 September 17 05:03:39

Saintly said..

"Isn't part of the measure of a champion how they handle different surfaces, different directions, different race types etc? How can Makybe Diva be the best ever when she couldn't handle hard tracks or shorter distances, or trips overseas"
-----------------------------------------------
That's some mighty fine Diva bashing there Saintly...

Of all those points listed above that you consider go into making a legend...please tell me how many Black caviar has conquered...?

And any other horse you consider to be a great.

To say Diva couldn't handle shorter distances, seriously how short do you want it, 7 furlongs is a sprint journey.

This not so transparent attack on her using Elvstroem as some sort of benchmark is ludicrous, the hard tracks comment is childish at best.

I encourage you to take a lot at all the Divas victories on film again and again, her BMW win was in my mind probably on par with Might n Powers CC win, yet both quite different victories, the way that mare came home over 2400 to break Northerly's record was nothing short of spine tingling.

Her second cup in the slop was brilliant, that's when stamped herself in those sh!tty conditions, and to be so damn audacious and stroll out for cup number 3 with 58kgs...well I mean if you can't rate a 3 in a row Melb cup winner...a mare no less, in the top 4 then there is definitely something wrong.

*Her failure in Japan..

She wins the BMW in so far her peak performance, in record time, over 2400m, she is then in Japan 22 days later, back in distance to 2000m, on a fast track, carrying 59kg, then has to step out to a 3200m G1 in 3 weeks, again on a fast track, how many horse's have won a BMW peaking in record time then faced the starter 3 weeks later overseas back in distance, then jumped up 6 furlongs in another 3 weeks and won...?

That trip was doomed from day one.

*The two arbitrary starts...

One of the interesting aspects of her early days when under David Hall, was after her first prep, Spring Aug 02 thru Nov 02.. she started 6 times for 6 wins.

*Then she had one of those leg stretching Autumn preps..

Between 5th April 2003 and 25th April 2003 she had two starts for an 8th and a 6th...Saintly does this type of prep ring any bells..??

It's that bridging prep used by many trainers over the years, Descarado and Maluckyday last season, are your two most recent examples.

*One of the most overlooked aspects of her career was the positions she came from in running to win..
Melb Cup 1.. 15-15-16-11
Syd Cup.. 10-9-8-7
Caulf Cup .. 18-16-15-6 when 2nd to Elvstroem
Melb cup 2 .. 13-14-17-8
Turnbull .. 14-13-13-12
Cox Plate .. 11-11-5-5
Melb Cup 3 ..17-18-14-5

A champion of the Australian turf, no doubt, a backmarking mare, who switched off in the run, then came home effortlessly to win.

Iggy...way to go on the mini hijack to sling some more goop at Kingston Town ...good job.

2011 September 17 00:19:09

MD, I have never stated that Elvis was a better horse. I just think that 3 MC's next to her name (which is an awesome feat), means that people elevate her to a level that she doesn't deserve.

Her overall record is not that of the best of all time, it is not even the record of the best mare of all time, in fact I have said earlier she is now probaly the 3rd best mare to race in this country this century.

She may or may not have been fully wound up for those clashes with Elvis, but the fact remains, he beat her home 5 of 8 clashes.

The best horses this country has produced win at a better strike rate than she did, and won if it was their grand final or not.

The fact that some people say she lost because it wasn't her grand final makes it more obvious to me that she is not the best of all time (far from it).

I again want to make it clear that I am not knocking her or her great record, just trying to put it in some perspective. I cheered her as loud as anyone in her Cox plate and all 3 of her cup wins.

I just don't have her at the top of my all time list, that is all.

She was a champ, and I was lucky enough to see her create history.

Pinkline Jones

2011 September 15 21:27:06

Agreed that Sunline remains well and truly Australasia's greatest mare.

It must be remembered that the overwatering of the 2005 Flemington track virtually cancelled out Eye Popper's chances in the MC. Winning Belle wouldn't have got near the placings in a G1 Japan race nor would have She's Archie or Manawa King. Makybe Diva was a star on domestic soil in 2005 and highly competent in the other years she raced. At her best, she probably would have acquitted herself quite well in Japan but we're not talking a horse in the same class as Daiwa Scarlet or Vodka.

PINKLINE JONES CBE

2011 September 15 20:22:56

2011 September 16 08:30:05

MD, the head to head was 5-3 in Elvstroem's favour.

He beat her home in:

2004 G1 Australian Cup (he was 3rd she was 6th)
2004 G2 Turnbull (he won, she was 7th)
2004 G1 Caulfield Cup (he won she was 2nd)
2005 G1 CF Orr (he won, she was 7th)
2005 G2 St George (he won, she was 2nd)

MD beat Elvis in:

2004 G1 BMW (she was 3rd, he was 6th)
2004 G1 Melb Cup (she won, he was 4th)
2005 G1 Australian Cup (she won, he was 4th)

Saintly, you've just franked my opinion. Do you really think she was set for the Turnbull (on way to MC victory #2), Orr (on way to Oz Cup & BMW victories), St George (on way to Cox & MC #3)or even CC (MC #2)? You could possibly argue that E wasn't 'set for' the MC either, being an afterthought after his CC win - I actually think his MC run was his best. The head to head doesn't matter to me. Whose 'CV' do you think the respective owners would prefer?

2011 September 15 17:08:04

MD, if she is well ahead of Elvis, how did he beat her more times than not?

I think they were very close ability wise.

She was a way better 2 miler, that is for sure.

2011 September 15 16:42:37

Perhaps my comments were put to harsh and slightly contradictory re; distances, my point was that Makybe won across various distances where it counts, 1400 up 3200, and she was very versatile when you consider she could actually..win first up, her Memsie victory over 7 furlongs beating tough gallopers like Regal Roller and Super Ellegant was extraordinary for a mare on a Melb Cups campaign, you have to admit that.

1 win at 1400m G2 Memsie first up.

1 win at 1600m her maiden first start..this distance then became elusive for the rest of her career,

she often tackled the mile second up and was competitive without winning only going down by small margins,

*Auckland club cup Listed 6th beaten 1.2 L
*Stock stakes at G3 4th beaten 2 L
*Carlyon Cup at G3 3rd beaten 2 L
*Feehan at G2 2nd beaten 0.2 L
*Dato tan Chin Nam G2 2nd beaten 0.1 L

1 win at 1700m Cl 1
5 wins at 2000m best in G1 Aus Cup
1 win at 2040m Cox Plate oustanding..!!
1 win at 2400m G1 BMW outstanding..!!
1 win at 2500m G2 QE Stks from last to first!!
4 wins at 3200m all G1 including 3 Melb Cups

She won went it counted, and also proved versatility by winning first up at G2 level over 1400m

That's what I mean by winning over various distances at the highest level too.

Victories from 1400m to 3200m at group level

Simply outstanding... and what's even more scary, she could have raced another season and been unbelievable again...her retirement was a grand gesture no doubt but she was a sound mare who just took it all in her stride with ease.

And as I type this...WOW Green Moon in the Newcastle cup..WTF what a huge win, tough as teak..

Loved that...jesus.

2011 September 15 12:11:51

Quez, Phar Lap, Tulloch, Carbine, SYT, Sunline, Northerly, even Octagonal and Lonhro all had far superior strike rates to MD and none were out and out sprinters. (I am not suggesting they are all superior, I am just making a point).

Makybe Diva did win the WFA Memsie over 1400m. So what distances would you like to rule out?

Isn't part of the measure of a champion how they handle different surfaces, different directions, different race types etc? How can Makybe Diva be the best ever when she couldn't handle hard tracks or shorter distances, or trips overseas?

I have read (on another site) where you suggest BC won't be an all time great until she races over a mile and out of her comfort zone, yet you make excuses for MD, where is your consistency?

Strike rates are not the only criteria in which we judge these things, but it certainly does come into it a little for sure.

By the way, you and a few others keep ignoring the fact that Elvstroem had her measure more times than not, where do you rank him in the all time list?

2011 September 15 12:51:56

Saintly, I have her well ahead of Elvstroem. Yes, she did win at WFA but for races she was set for - Cups, Oz Cup, Cox, etc - I'm pretty sure he never beat her home. Apart from the cc, where she was clearly on a MC campaign, his wins against her were at distances where she was not suited and/or were in lead up races. I'd be keen to know what 'Grand Finals' he beat her in.

2011 September 15 08:41:46

Randwick Flat enclosure closed mid 70s, if ancient memory serves, but before KT raced.

2011 September 14 22:57:21

How can you use the strike rate of a staying champion against a sprinter..?

Stayers have to race into fitness before they are at their peak..Sprinters just go from the get go..take away all Makybe Divas unsuitable distance races and then you can assess her strike rate.

Can't believe some of this strike rate commentary when camparing sprinters and champion WFA stayers.

Nonsense.

2011 September 15 10:34:51

I appreciate your point Quez, and usually I'd agree, but when we talk about the all-time greats, and those who were able to win over any distance up to 2 miles - Phar Lap, Kingston Town, Tulloch etc all had phenomenal career strike rates and were able to win over all distances.

You stated in this thread:

"You can't call a horse a champion when they are ristricted in their ability to race over various distances in my opinion".

And "from KT onwards Makybe simply streets everything, she was the complete champion, winning at various distances "

To then argue that you should not count MD's runs at distances below her best, contradicts your earlier 2 posts.

But for the record, Makybe Diva was 3 for 8 in feature Group races over 2000-2040 metres, (4 from 9 if you include the Werribee Cup as a feature) and 1 from 4 over 2400 metres (2 from 5 if you count the Queen Elizabeth over 2500 metres.)

And, after winning her Maiden and Class 1 at her first 2 starts, she was then 1 from 11 at distances under 2000 metres against open company, which again contradicts your argument that champions should be able to win at all distances.

MD was a genuine champion, a legend, and as I say responsible for the greatest achievement I'll see on a racetrack (3 Melb Cups) but as I said I think this achievement has tended to immortalise the rest of her career.

Not arguing that to you she's the best you've seen, everyone has differing opinions, and she is a worthy contender, but jusged on your comments in this thread I don't believe she fits some of your own criteria of what makes a champion.

Cheers

kidlat

2011 September 14 20:15:34

Tutor,

Nice thread and some good posts. The way I look at it you can assess a horse's merit in two way. The first is the sum of it's accomplishments, which incorporates things like versatility and longevity, which some have mentioned. This is easy to assess, just check the record books.

The second is how good was/is a horses absolute best. MD's post on the Diva touched on this. This is harder to assess, and what ratings try to quantify, though we've seen on this forum how contentious they can be. How you weigh these two criteria will probably determine your opinion on this. And of course a good dose of personal preference for a particular horse.

I've been watching racing for about 20 years and I haven't seen a better horse in terms of what she is capable of. Not only that, there is very little drop off in ratings between runs from what are incredibly high peaks. BC coninues to produce incredible performances run after run, in a way I haven't seen other horses do.

I'd love to see BC run around for a few more years and win over a mile, but if she doesn't, it won't change my estimation of her.

2011 September 14 15:58:01

Agree with that MD.

Marbine, good point about her prep too, I think the best of MD was good enough to win overseas, it is just a pity we didn't see her do it.

To my way of thinking, her from around Elvis shows she should have been competitive overseas.

Poindexter

2011 September 14 15:45:52

My turn "Youngsters"

This is something Ewe don't see anymore

KT... not Manikato

Punters would turn up on track to watch him race then go home

His race was placed further down the card, so as to keep the crowd

Hard done by Punters used to have $0.50c E/W on horses

I was a lot younger and only within the Last few years "Have" started to understand

These same Punters would have $1.00 or $1.50 straight out on Kingston Town.. normally attending the Flat

The Bookies would give them over the Odd's.. sometimes even Black Odd's

Remember the stories about Phar Lap.. reference was often made

Bookies would Put up 1/2 betting only ...

Ewe couldn't get on... Quinella's only

KT.. maybe Tulloch.. Phar Lap

It was a different time... No Money

Those horses were a Godsend to many

No Pokies, No Lotto, No Keno

Back KT and Ewe could afford an extra "Pie" with Sauce when leaving the track

Black Caviar will never fill that type of void of those horses from the "PAST"

The Shu

2011 September 14 20:22:18

piondexter ewe must have grown up in an alternative universe to me.

I followed KT to the races between Sydney and Melbourne. No-one EVER watched Kingston Town from the flat. The caulfield flat closed in the mid 70s, Moonee Valley flat was closed long before the trotting t5rack was built and Randwick flat met its demise in the 60's I believe.

2011 September 14 01:09:13

Iggy...

great post mate..thumbs up.

marbine

2011 September 14 08:21:34

Some really good posts here and some good natured arguing :-)

Iggy says..."The other point that may be worth noting, and is often overlooked with Makybe Diva, is that she was bred to Northern Hemisphere time, which meant that it wasn't possible for her to run in the major age-restricted Group One races in Australia, such as the Derby and the Oaks."

Too true but have we factored in that this is probably the reason that she was able to win 3 MCs. Had she been bred to SH time and won an Oaks and/or Derby there's no way she wins 3 MCs, she gets weighted out as she would get 52-52ish in the 1st and on from there..

IMO her achievement of winning 3 MCs is the greates that I have seen on the racetrack and may well end up being the best. As for her as an overall horse goes... I'd rate her a champion but I'm with Saintly, probably the 3rd best mare I've seen, she relegates Emancipation to 4th. Sunline the best ATM but BC closing ever so far.

2011 September 13 18:30:32

She is a champ (BC), no doubt, kills excellent horses everytime she goes around. Awesome performances everytime, who knows how good she really is, she has never been tested fully.

Quez, Makybe Diva was an excellent racemare, but she lost way more races than she won (hardly the record of the best of all time).

Elvstroem beat her home more times than she beat him, where does he sit in the overall scheme of things?

I am not knocking the mare she is a champ, but she is not in the same league as Phar Lap, Tulloch, Rising Fast etc IMO.

In recent years horses like Sunline and Northerly would have better overall records.

The best Aussie racehorse of all time would have been able to win overseas.

I rate her a champ (MD), but probably only the third best mare to have raced in this country this century. Her 3 MC's were phenomenal, but other than that she has only 4 other group 1 wins (one of those a weak Sydney Cup).

Makybe Diva is a champ, but the best of all time, no way, not even close IMO.

2011 September 13 22:42:40

I realise this is a thread about Black Caviar, but I can't help but take issue with some of the comments by Saintly1996 about Makybe Diva. The comments, in my view, reflect a general predisposition of people to under-rate some of the modern champions, particularly in comparison to those of the past.

For instance, Saintly1996 says that Makybe Diva "lost way more races than she won" and, two paragraphs later, "she is not in the same league as ... Rising Fast". Rising Fast, for those who may not be aware, won 24 of his 68 (yes, that's right, 68) starts, ie. he had a lower strike-rate than Makybe Diva. Now I'm not saying that strike-rates are necessarily the defining pointer as to the class of racehorses, but it seems a bit ridiculous to, one the one hand, wheel out a horse's strike-rate as some sort of criticism of it, then, on the other, say it's not in the same league as horse with an even lower strike-rate!

The comment that "the best Aussie racehorse of all time would have been able to win overseas" is also a little nebulous, in my view, in that, of the five inaugural inductees into the Australian Racing Hall Of Hame (Carbine, Phar Lap, Bernborough, Tulloch, and Kingston Town), only Phar Lap actually won overseas - so not having won overseas has never been an obstacle to the high rating of a racehorse. In other countries, too, such as Japan, I'm sure Deep Impact is still very highly rated even though he didn't win the Arc De Triomphe.

I would also take issue with the comment that Makybe Diva won "weak Sydney Cup". While the runner-up, Manawa King, was lightly-raced and broke down before winning a big race, she did give him 7.5 kilos more than weight-for-age, and the field included a number of good stayers, including Mummify (Caulfield Cup, Singapore Gold Cup, etc.), County Tyrone (Sydney Cup, The Metropolitan, etc.), and Grey Song (dual Caulfield Cup placegetter). In my view, that is an above-average Sydney Cup.

The other point that may be worth noting, and is often overlooked with Makybe Diva, is that she was bred to Northern Hemisphere time, which meant that it wasn't possible for her to run in the major age-restricted Group One races in Australia, such as the Derby and the Oaks. This is important because, in the Australian spring of 2002 (ie. some six months before her actual fourth birthday) she didn't have the option of contesting the races that your typical three-and-a-half-year-old filly would have been contesting, such as the AJC or QTC Oaks. Consider also that, in that time, she defeated older males in two stakes races, including the Queen Elizabeth Stakes, so - had she been eligible - there's little question that she would have been up to winning an Oaks and would have had more Group Ones on her resume.

2011 September 14 09:56:35

Ig,

Had MD won an Oaks she wouldnt have won 3 MCs.

She would have been given more weight each year and only won 2.

The owner would much prefer what she actually did.

2011 September 14 00:33:02

Good post Iglesia

Looking back on it my post re Makybe Diva came across very negatively - it wasn't the intention. Just that, like many examples in sport, sometimes public adulation of a horse or of a particular event overrides some of the facts surrounding their achievements.

She was certainly a champion, and her 3 Cup wins will ensure she remains in Australian folklore long after many of our other great champions have been forgotten. But when I think of the overall best horse I've seen, I still have a few ahead of her.

Black Caviar is just something else - who knows where she'll end up all time, lets just enjoy the ride.

Cheers

2011 September 14 10:51:11

Great post Iglesia.

I will just make a few points however.

First of all, I think she was a champ, as I have said previously, but you failed to mention anything about the fact that Elvstroem had her measure (more times than not), it shows just how good she really was.

My point about her not winning overseas is that Australia best ever racehorse would be capable of doing so, she raced twice overseas and lost. Horses like Carbine, Tulloch and co, no doubt would have been able to win overseas, horses like Phar Lap, Sunline and more recently SYT did. The fact she was outclassed makes me believe she was not our best ever.

She had a great winning streak at the start (at the vic provincials), and at the end of her career, but at one stage in the middle of her career, she won just 3 of 19 races, again, not the record of a horse that be considered our best ever.

Good point Iglesia re the strike rates. I accept Rising Fast did in fact have a worse strike rate, but he did carry much more weight in his handicap events. The thing for me that proves his greatness was the spring of 1954 when Rising Fast finished the 1954 season with wins which included the Turnbull Stakes, Caulfield Stakes, Caulfield Cup, Cox Plate, Melbourne Cup, LKS Mackinnon Stakes and VRC C.B.Fisher Plate during a great spring campaign.

Again I think you make a great point re the quality of the Sydney Cup she won, and I will concede the quality was better than my initial post made out.

Anyway, it is just my opinion on the great mare, if we all thought the same it would be a boring world.

2011 September 15 23:13:07

Saintly1996 has asked what we should make of the fact that Elvstroem scored a handful of victories over Makybe Diva. This, regretably, is the sort of question that is often asked about horses in the modern era - my guess is because these things happened reasonably recently they are fresh in people's minds. But why don't we ask the same questions when it comes to the champions of the past? For instance, why doesn't someone ask what we should make of the fact that Hyperno beat Kingston Town twice in the space of a week in the 1980 Caulfield Stakes and Caulfield Cup? And, if I'm not mistaken, for a third time in the 1981 Melbourne Cup?

Now just because Hyperno beat Kingston Town on more than one occasion, it doesn't mean he was a better horse than Kingston Town, or that Kingston Town was not a great horse. Similarly, just because Elvstroem beat Makybe Diva on more than one occasion, it doesn't mean he was a better horse than Makybe Diva, or that Makybe Diva was not a great horse.

I would also make the point that this two of 17 business that people have come up with in relation to the middle stages of Makybe Diva's career is totally arbitrary, and excludes 85% of her wins for no good reason.

Not only that, this is the type of statistic that people revel in wheeling out for the modern horses, but never go to the trouble of concocting for the stars of yesteryear. The fact is, any horse can be made out as some kind of loser with this type of approach. For instance, Kingston Town failed to win a race in his first five starts in Melbourne. Kingston Town failed to win a race in five starts in Melbourne beyond the Cox Plate distance. Kingston Town failed in all three attempts to win a Group One handicap carrying more than 52.5 kilos.

Now, anyone wheeling out those sorts of statistics about Kingston Town is usually labelled as some sort of heretic, and is pilloried for not limiting their analysis to adding up how many Cox Plates he won!

Evidently - and somewhat hypocritically - nobody feels compelled to limit their analysis of Makybe Diva to how many Melbourne Cups she won - and this is despite the clear evidence that winning three Melbourne Cups is a greater feat (ie. there have been five multiple Melbourne Cup winners in 150 years, compared to 13 multiple Cox Plate winners in 89 years).

2011 September 16 08:52:23

Good reply Quez, excellent post.

Iglesia, well done for moving the thread onto Kingston Town. You're persistent, I'll give you that.

"would also make the point that this two of 17 business that people have come up with in relation to the middle stages of Makybe Diva's career is totally arbitrary"

The only reason it was bought up was that we are talking about all time greats here, the Big 4, and their respective records. The above indicates that Makybe Diva was a very good stayer up until the last 6 months of her career, where she became a outright champion. Her wonderful achievements of winning 3 Melbourne Cups has, in hindsight perhaps glorified the rest of her career. As a WFA performer, to me the pinnacle of racing, there are many I would rate ahead of the mare. Clearly though her 3 Melbourne Cups is reason alone for her to be a legend as you stated.

As for people knocking modern champions, I know this is a theme with you however I don't believe its necessarily true. On the contrary, I think sometimes horses when they are currently racing are over-hyped, and its only at the end of their careers and in retropect that their achievements are put in the correct context (ie Weekened Hussler.) I think everyone who follows racing loves the emergence of a champion, it's part of the romance of the sport. Thats what's been so exciting about the emergence of genuine champs like So You Think and Black Caviar, we are witnessing potentially 2 of the all time greats at the one time.

In Black Caviar's case, for me there can be no argument. Ability wise she's the best sprinter I've seen (I wasn't around to see Vain) and while she doesn't have the career record of a Manikato or a Takeover Target at this stage, she's certainly on track to be considered the greatest sprinter ever.

Considering the wonderful sprinters we've produced in the last 25 years alone (Schilachi, Falvelon, Miss Andretti, Placid Ark, Choisir, Campaign King, Special, Takeover Target, Scenic Blast, Hareeba, even Hay List) that in itself is a wonderful achievement.

Eastside Steve

2011 September 16 21:56:57

Sorry, imagine what Hay List would have done to them.

Then imagine what Black Caviar would have done to them.

Eastside

Eastside Steve

2011 September 16 21:54:58

Imagine what Black Caviar would have done to Scenic Blast and Miss Andretti....

Eastside

marbine

2011 September 14 14:01:25

Saitly, I'm don't agree that the Diva was outclassed in Japan. I also think that she was more than capable of winning overseas, maybe other things conspired agianst her such as a rock hard track. Also, Eye Popper ran 3rd in the Tenno Sho that she ran 6th or 7th and he gave her 2kgs, she later smashed him in the MC and gave him around the same. Another thing, not many horse can have an international prep in May and come back & win a MC, esp with our quarrentine laws..

2011 September 14 12:37:37

I don't have the Diva in my top few horses, mainly due to arguments already used like overall strike rate. HOWEVER, I do think that for the 12 months between her 2nd and 3rd Cups she was virtually unbeatable, winning everything she was set for, usually in good time, including knocking off Northerly's Oz record 2000m time in the Aust Cup - a record I thought would stand for some time. If ( and a big if admittedly) the rest of her career was like this 12 months there is no doubt she would be one of, if not the, best horse to have raced here.

Hands N Heels

2011 September 14 17:07:08

Couldn't have encapsulated better in 5 lines myself there MD.

2011 September 14 09:58:27

Would MD have beaten M&P over staying trips at WFA?

3200m would be close but 2000m to 2600m M&P would have her measure.

Eastside Steve

2011 September 13 20:51:14

Hay List at his best would be competitive up to 1200 with any horse over the last 50 years.

Black Caviar makes him look like a Benchmark 75 horse.

Moody will try and get her to 20 wins in a row by March.

Racing needs that more than anything right now.

Phar who?

Eastside

2011 September 13 20:08:23

Gotta agree with Saintly on this one Quez.

Less than 1 in 3 strike rate in Open Company or at WFA, 2 wins from 17 starts over a 2 year period in the middle of her career as a 4-6 Yr old, failure to run a drum in 2 overseas starts, and unable to win at WFA until her 8th attempt, in her final year on the track, means as wonderful as she was for the sport, to me she doesn't rate up with a few other modern day champs.

Not the best I've seen, but certainly her 3 Cups are the greatest achievement I'll ever witness. But, its all just opinons mate, and I totally understand if you feel differently. Nothing wrong with differing opinions.

btw remember watching the Makybe Diva DVD, I know Bossy gets bagged for his theatrics at times but his rides on the mare in her Melbourne/Sydney Cup wins were simply brilliant; particularly when cotrasted to the rides on the runners up in those races. Makybe Diva deserves her place amongst the immortals, no doubt, but I think the role Bossy played in her triumphs often gets overlooked.

They were a great partnership.

Kincsem

2011 September 13 17:35:33

I'm 28 and she's clearly the best sprinter I've seen with Haylist not far off second best.

Would be interesting to compare what "The Big Four" had done in their first 13 starts.

Can't imagine anything doing more than what she's done up to this point.

justlikejoe

2011 September 13 17:14:47

She is the best sprinter ive seen in my 28 years of watching horse racing. I still cant believe she picked up Hay List in the TJ Smith. Hang on, she didnt just pick him up, she belted him after that. Freakish.
I doubt we'll see her back up season after season, unlike the Man, Bernborough, TT and KT. She is a mare after all, there was no future other than racing for the geldings.
Agree with what someone said earlier. If not for her we'd raving about Hay list. He has to be on par with Schillaci and Harreba in the "modern' era for mine.
Gee we've had some good spinters, and some even better memories.
Placid Ark, At sea, Special, wonderful memories from my early teens and pre teens.
Joe.

2011 September 13 16:50:07

Hi Tutor good post BTW..

I'm 44 and can't imagine seeing a better horse than Makybe Diva for the rest of my time.

So You Think & Sunline battle out the minors

Horse's like Tulloch and Kingston Town have incredible records, but from KT onwards Makybe simply streets everything, she was the complete champion, winning at various distances where it counts, ( 1400m + beyond, and at WFA, continued to win despite the handicapper, and 3 Melbourne cups...a record unlikely to never be broken.

You can't call a horse a champion when they are ristricted in their ability to race over various distances in my opinion.

If a horse can conquer their own sex, open company, WFA over 2 or more seasons that does not get them in the champion category, unless, it's accomplished over various distances from 1400 to 2040m.

How can a sprinter be crowned the best overall when it's restricted to distance..?

BC gets champion sprinter of the modern era no doubt, but she can't get an overall tag, no way.

She will be remembered like others in that category..
Vain
Manikato
Rancher
etc etc

Having said that, she hasn't finished her career yet so there is still time, but in all seriousness we aren't likely to see her stretch out to anything further than a mile at most.

2011 September 13 16:28:35

Depends how highly you rate winning distance range. Eurochamps have a narrow winning distance range; Australian champs have traditionally been able to win over a big distance range. Would we remember Phar Lap, Bernborough, Tulloch or Kingston Town if their winning range was 1000m to 1200m? Maybe: probably not.

The Tutor

2011 September 13 15:38:20

Great to see some level headed debate on this subject here and there seems and pretty even spilt.

I do want it to be clear though that I am definitely not waiting for her to get beaten or even worse go amiss.

The absolutely love racing and love horses even more and I would be delighted to watch her go on and become one of the greats.

Keep the comments coming.

spidermcglurk

2011 September 13 16:33:16

I don't really think having Gerard Whately saying you are the greatest since Phar Lap means anything, the guy was demanding a $1 million match race on MC day between BC and Sepoy after Sepoy won first up a few weeks ago lol. This clown finds a new great of the turf every 2nd year.

Poindexter

2011 September 13 15:20:07

Foolish trying to Line her Up against any of them..

First sign of Injury

She will be GORN

She's quick, but the Oldies always rememeber the ones they grew up with, and maybe we over emphasis Manikato and KT..

But by Hell,, they were out there Season after season, up against the New Kid on block, Injury after Injury, winning the Events that everyone thought that they couldn't...

That is why most of Us "OLDIES" revere those Racehorses

Maybe in 10 or 20 years time she may be reguarded as one of the Best...

She has probably already done Enuff to be rated with them

tigerrish

2011 September 13 13:12:03

Its a fair call Tutor, a year at the top doesn't make you a legend.

I think she's the best sprinter I've seen, but to be classed along side those four she needs to do what they did, back it up for more than a year.

Thats not down playing her performances or her ability in the slightest.

The racing world is littered with horses who went through an incredible period of performances that had people questioning if they were the next "Phar Lap or Manikato" Some got the chance to continue on and didnt quite hit their lofty standards they set for themselves early on(Octagonal, Weekend Hussler, Surround etc) and others never got the chance to show if they were good enough for long enough (Rubiton, Red Anchor, Saintly)

Thoroughbred racing is a sport. And in all other sports participants are not considered to be in the upper elite catagory as far as history goes, until they show it for more than one season in their chosen field.

I dont see any reason why Black Caviar wont continue where she left off. I think if she ends this season in a similar position as she finished last season, then there is every reason to elevate her to another level.

All she has to do is to keep backing it up, just as those four did in their time.

2011 September 13 12:11:22

She's the fastest horse I've seen.

Phar Lap and Tulloch were better over distance so hard to compare especially seeing most alive today haven't seen Phar Lap.

2011 September 13 13:28:53

Yeah impossible to line her up at this stage.

Ability wise she's the best I've seen. Career wise, she doesn't compare to Kingston Town, Manikato, Tulloch in terms of longevity - the fact that all 3 of these horses overcame major injuries/illness to achieve their champion status only adds to their lustre.

She's more Vain than Manikato career record wise, but lets just sit back and watch her career unfold before making any final decisions. If she never runs in another race she'll still be remembered as an absolute champion.

As Igleisa said, its impossible to knock her on what she's achieved to date, lets just be thankful we're around to see her run.

I was heading over to Melbourne on Saturday for the races and hopefully an AFL final at the G Sat night - turns out as luck has it the footy is in Perth, but on the plus side Black Caviar will be at Caulfield. More than happy with that trade-off.

geelong63

2011 September 13 11:43:27

Don't see the point in comparing her to non-sprinters myself but she's still a bit behind the big boy MANIKATO for mine. Another 12-18 months and like you I would reconsider. Ability wise - who knows? She might beat him at 1200m WFA but longevity, versatility and handicap performances count in my estimation. Well before my time but former trainer Martin Riley said recently of BERNBOROUGH - 'he'd pick her [Black Caviar] up at the 200m and carry her over the line'. Changes to race programming & status, vet science, nutrition, competition, track mgt, professionalism etc all cloud the debate.

The Shu

2011 September 13 11:08:16

A quote from the shows opening.

"Not since the mighty Phar lap has a horse captured the imagination of the public."

Untrue. - two words
MAKYBE DIVA